REVIEW 3 major objections 5 minor 4 cited by
The I=2 three-pion lattice spectrum is shown to be dominated by a repulsive rho-pi S-wave interaction, with effective phase shifts of about -20 to -40 degrees, in line with a leading-order chiral Lagrangian.
Reviewed by Pith at T0; open to challenge. T0 means a machine referee read the full paper against a public rubric. the ladder, T0–T4 →
T0 review · deepseek-v4-flash
2026-08-03 08:24 UTC pith:WITGDIBK
load-bearing objection Solid FVU extension and a defensible repulsive rho-pi signal, but frozen two-body input and sparse spectrum mean the quantitative phase-shift range is not yet controlled. the 3 major comments →
Coupled-channel approach to isotensor πππ scattering from lattice QCD
The pith
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
The authors show that the I=2 three-pion system, despite hosting the rho resonance in a subchannel and being a coupled-channel problem with a second isobar (the isotensor 'isograviton' G), has a repulsive rho-pi S-wave interaction at the considered pion masses. Quantitatively, the effective phase shift in the narrow-rho limit is negative, roughly -20 to -40 degrees for center-of-mass energies between 3.4 and 4.8 pion masses at m_pi about 315 MeV. The repulsion is too large to be explained by pion exchange (which is slightly attractive) or the G channel (slightly repulsive), requiring a short-range three-body force. This extracted interaction pattern agrees, at the quantitative level allowed
What carries the argument
The central machinery is the coupled-channel finite-volume unitarity (FVU) quantization condition, Eqs. (2.23) and (2.38), which maps the discrete finite-volume spectrum to the infinite-volume amplitude. It includes the rho-pi isobar-spectator channels of helicities -1, 0, +1 and the scalar isograviton channel, with one-pion exchange, finite-volume self-energies matched to infinite-volume ones, and a momentum-, energy-dependent three-body contact term. A subtraction scheme for the one-pion-exchange term (over-subtraction, Eq. 2.36) suppresses large spectator momenta and reduces cutoff dependence, and a form factor regulates the three-body force. In the narrow-rho limit the coupled system red
Load-bearing premise
The two-body pi-pi phase shifts (delta_11 and delta_20 at unphysical pion masses) are taken as frozen inputs from a separate lattice-based analysis, including their extrapolation below threshold, and their systematic uncertainties are not propagated into the fitted three-body contact terms; the pion-mass independence of the three-body force is also assumed when predicting the lighter-mass spectrum.
What would settle it
A lattice calculation at a third volume with the same pion mass that is not reproduced by the fitted parameters, or a shift of the input delta_11/delta_20 within their quoted systematic errors that moves the extracted rho-pi phase shift outside the -20 to -40 degree band.
If this is right
- The repulsive rho-pi S-wave interaction in the I=2 channel can be used to constrain the short-range three-body force in chiral effective field theories.
- The method extends to other coupled-channel three-body systems, such as the a1(1260) and omega channels, providing a unified framework for extracting infinite-volume amplitudes.
- The successful prediction of the lighter-pion-mass spectrum supports the assumption of a mild pion-mass dependence of the three-body contact term, enabling chiral extrapolations toward the physical point.
- The effective phase shifts in the narrow-rho limit provide a bridge to standard two-body phase-shift analyses and to comparisons with bound-state rho analyses at heavier pion masses.
Where Pith is reading between the lines
- The agreement with the leading-order effective Lagrangian suggests that, at these pion masses, the three-body force is dominated by short-distance physics that chiral EFT can already capture at leading order; testing this at physical quark masses would determine whether higher-order terms are needed.
- The singular behavior of the fitted contact term as a function of cutoff is a place where the FVU and other three-body formalisms could be compared at the level of renormalization-group properties, potentially clarifying the role of three-body forces in finite volume.
- The pattern of small attractions/repulsions (pion exchange slightly attractive, G channel slightly repulsive) suggests that the I=2 system is a clean benchmark for three-body formalisms because it is non-resonant yet has a resonant subchannel; more precise data at multiple volumes could sharpen the phase-shift bands and discriminate between parameterizations.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper extends the finite-volume unitarity (FVU) three-body quantization condition to the coupled-channel I=2 three-pion system with J^PC=1^{+-}, including a π-ρ isobar with helicities and an isotensor ππ S-wave isobar ("isograviton"). Two lattice ensembles from GWQCD (m_pi≈315 MeV and ≈224 MeV) are used; the 315 MeV spectrum is fitted with two-parameter three-body contact terms, and the resulting infinite-volume amplitudes are used to study the πρ interaction. The authors extract production amplitudes, take a narrow-ρ limit to define effective two-body phase shifts, and compare with the leading-order effective Lagrangian of Birse (Ref. [100]). They also report an out-of-sample prediction of the 224 MeV spectrum using the same three-body force. The central physics claim is that the dominant (πρ) S-wave is repulsive, with effective phase shifts of roughly -20° to -40°.
Significance. If the result holds, this is a useful step toward coupled-channel three-body analyses from lattice QCD: it is the first FVU treatment of the I=2 three-pion system with a resonant subchannel and an isotensor channel, and it provides a first-principles indication that the πρ S-wave at I=2 is repulsive, consistent with simple effective-Lagrangian expectations. The paper also contains a technically useful over-subtraction scheme for the one-particle exchange term, which visibly reduces hard-cutoff artifacts (Fig. 2). The lattice spectra and covariance matrices are presented explicitly, and the use of model averaging for the energy levels is a positive feature. The main limitations are the sparsity of the data (four levels in a single volume/irrep at the heavier pion mass), the frozen external two-body input, and the spread among acceptable fit forms; these limit the quantitative strength of the claimed -20° to -40° range.
major comments (3)
- [§III.B, Eq. (2.21), Eq. (2.28), Eq. (3.5)] The two-body input is treated as exact: the IAM phase shifts δ11 and δ20 from Ref. [109] enter through Eq. (2.21), the sub-threshold K-matrix is fixed at σ0=4mπ² in Eq. (2.28), and the fits in Eq. (3.5) vary only gS and gD. No uncertainty from the external two-body analysis is propagated into the contact terms or into the infinite-volume phase shifts of Fig. 13. Since the fitted lattice levels lie near the πρ threshold, a systematic shift in the ρ pole position/width or in the I=2 S-wave could be partially absorbed by re-fitting gS,gD and would move the extracted -20°/-40° band. Please propagate the two-body uncertainties, or demonstrate by explicit variation of the IAM input that the quoted band is stable. The statement that the unphysical-region K-matrix has only a minor effect is based on pilot studies that are not shown; this claim should either be quantified or softened.
- [Table II and Fig. 13] The quoted 'typical size -20° to -40°' in the conclusions is taken from fits 1 and 2 only. Fit 7 in Table II is also statistically acceptable (χ²/dof=1.48/2=0.74) but produces substantially more negative phase shifts in Fig. 13, with a different balance between c00 and c11. The spread among acceptable parametrizations is therefore larger than the quoted range, and the statement that both sign and size are determined is not supported unless all acceptable fits are included in the uncertainty band or a criterion is given for excluding fit 7. This is load-bearing because the paper's central quantitative claim rests on this range.
- [§III.B and Conclusions] The prediction for the 2464 ensemble is presented as a 'successful prediction' and the abstract/conclusions refer to 'chiral extrapolations'. However, the prediction explicitly assumes that the three-body force C is independent of the pion mass, an assumption that is not tested, and the 2464 data have very large uncertainties (e.g., the E1 eigenvalue error is O(m_pi)). χ²/dof≈1 against data with such errors provides only a weak consistency check. Please rephrase this as a consistency check under an stated assumption, and clarify what is actually being extrapolated.
minor comments (5)
- [Abstract] Typo: 'lattice QC' should be 'lattice QCD'.
- [Table II] Fit 9 is labelled by m_pi=224 but is not discussed in the text. If it is a fit to the 2464 data, explain how it relates to the 'prediction' of the 2464 spectrum in §III.B.
- [§V.B / Fig. 13 caption] The notation 'fits 1' and '2' after cutoff exchange (fits 1' and 2') is confusing; consider using a different symbol, e.g., '1*', to avoid suggesting a new fit.
- [Fig. 5 text] 'residuum' should be 'residue' throughout.
- [§II.B, Eq. (2.23) and (2.38)] The relation between Method 1 and Method 2 would be clearer if the text explicitly stated that ˘B also appears in the infinite-volume equation used for the amplitude extraction, not only in the quantization condition.
Circularity Check
No significant circularity: fitted three-body contacts feed standard amplitude extraction; the 2464 prediction is out-of-sample and the self-cited two-body input is external.
full rationale
The derivation chain is not circular. New lattice spectra (Eq. 3.4) are inputs; the FVU quantization condition (Eq. 2.38) is solved with two-body phase shifts from Ref. [109] (Eq. 2.21) and three-body contact parameters fitted to the 2448 levels (Eq. 3.5). The infinite-volume amplitudes (Eq. 2.11) and the narrow-rho phase shifts (Eq. 5.5) are deterministic functionals of those fitted parameters; this is standard amplitude extraction rather than a renamed fit. The 2464 spectrum is genuinely predicted without using 2464 data in the fit ('assuming that the obtained three-body force C does not change with the pion mass'), so the out-of-sample claim is not forced. The comparison with the leading-order effective Lagrangian (Eqs. 4.8-4.10; Fig. 13) uses an independent external framework, even though it shares pion-mass and rho parameters with Ref. [109]. The main weaknesses -- frozen IAM input from a largely overlapping collaboration and no propagated uncertainty from that input -- are robustness concerns, not circularity: no equation in the paper reduces by construction to its own input. Score 2 reflects the presence of a significant self-citation for the two-body input without the central claim depending on an unverified self-citation chain.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
free parameters (6)
- gS (rho-pi S-wave three-body contact, fit 1 / fit 2) =
4.929 / 5.377
- gD (rho-pi D-wave three-body contact, fit 1 / fit 2) =
2.063 / 2.296
- c01, c11, c12 (coupling to isograviton channel) =
fits 4 & 7: c01*m_pi=13.4, c11*m_pi^2=14.5, c12*m_pi=-; other fits set to zero
- form-factor cutoff Lambda_bar =
2 m_pi (chosen)
- matching point sigma_0 =
4 m_pi^2 (chosen)
- production parameters lambda, Df0, Df2, Df1 =
lambda=0.5 m_pi^{-1}, Df0=Df2=m_pi, Df1=1
axioms (6)
- domain assumption The FVU quantization condition (Eqs. 2.23, 2.38) is valid for the coupled rho-pi / pi-G channel space with a finite-width rho
- domain assumption The two-body pi-pi phase shifts from the inverse amplitude method of Ref. [109] at m_pi~315 and 224 MeV are the correct input, including the sub-threshold region down to sigma_0 = 4 m_pi^2
- domain assumption The three-body force is independent of the pion mass
- ad hoc to paper The over-subtracted one-particle exchange term B_tilde = (s/s_on) B preserves the physical on-shell amplitude and unitarity
- ad hoc to paper The factorized form of the three-body contact term (gS, gD) spans the relevant coupling space
- standard math Standard partial-wave projection and Wigner-D / O_h group-theory machinery
invented entities (1)
-
No new physical entities
no independent evidence
read the original abstract
The quest to understand three-body dynamics from first-principle QCD includes the study of non-resonant and resonant systems. The isospin $I=2$ system is of particular interest having no three-body resonance but featuring a resonance in a sub-channel, while also being a coupled-channel problem. In this study, we calculate the finite-volume spectrum from lattice QCD at two different pion masses, map the amplitude to the infinite volume through a generalized Finite-Volume Unitarity (FVU) three-body quantization condition, investigate the limit of a narrow $\rho$, and compare with an effective Lagrangian prediction at leading order. Chiral extrapolations between different pion masses are performed.
Figures
Forward citations
Cited by 4 Pith papers
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Reference graph
Works this paper leans on
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[1]
threshold
The dashed vertical line shows the infinite-volumeπρ“threshold” defined as √s=m π +m ρ such from the condition{ √σ=m ρ|cotδ 11(√σ) = 0}. The thin vertical line, showing the finite-volume energy without any interactions betweenπandρ, is shifted to higher energies due to the small but finite width of theρ-meson. See text for further explanations. IV. COUPLE...
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[2]
washed out
Note also the compensating factor 2g2 1 in Eq. (4.5). For the numerical comparison, we usef π = 0.336m π,m ρ = 2.463m π at the heavy pion mass of mπ ≈315 MeV determined on the same ensemble [109], andg 1 = 5.8 as before. In the same plot, we show limits allowed by the lattice, i.e., the values of the ˜Cdetermined from a fit of method 1 of Eq. (2.23) to th...
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Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, Maxwell T. Hansen, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Numerical study of the relativistic three-body quantization 27 condition in the isotropic approximation,” Phys. Rev. D98, 014506 (2018), arXiv:1803.04169 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2018
-
[47]
Three-particle systems with resonant subprocesses in a finite volume,
Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, Maxwell T. Hansen, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Three-particle systems with resonant subprocesses in a finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D99, 014516 (2019), arXiv:1810.01429 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[48]
Finite-Volume Spectrum ofπ +π+ andπ +π+π+ Systems,
Maxim Mai and Michael Doring, “Finite-Volume Spectrum ofπ +π+ andπ +π+π+ Systems,” Phys. Rev. Lett.122, 062503 (2019), arXiv:1807.04746 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[49]
Three-body spectrum in a finite volume: the role of cubic symmetry,
M. D¨ oring, H. W. Hammer, M. Mai, J. Y. Pang,§A. Rusetsky, and J. Wu, “Three-body spectrum in a finite volume: the role of cubic symmetry,” Phys. Rev. D97, 114508 (2018), arXiv:1802.03362 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2018
-
[50]
Equivalence of three-particle scattering formalisms,
A. W. Jackura, S. M. Dawid, C. Fern´ andez-Ram ´ ırez, V. Mathieu, M. Mikhasenko, A. Pilloni, S. R. Sharpe, and A. P. Szczepaniak, “Equivalence of three-particle scattering formalisms,” Phys. Rev. D100, 034508 (2019), arXiv:1905.12007 [hep-ph]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[51]
Three-body unitarity versus finite-volumeπ +π+π+ spectrum from lattice QCD,
M. Mai, M. D¨ oring, C. Culver, and A. Alexandru, “Three-body unitarity versus finite-volumeπ +π+π+ spectrum from lattice QCD,” Phys. Rev. D101, 054510 (2020), arXiv:1909.05749 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[52]
Propagation of particles on a torus,
Peng Guo, “Propagation of particles on a torus,” Phys. Lett. B804, 135370 (2020), arXiv:1908.08081 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[53]
Implementing the three-particle quantization condition including higher partial waves,
Tyler D. Blanton, Fernando Romero-L´ opez, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Implementing the three-particle quantization condition including higher partial waves,” JHEP03, 106 (2019), arXiv:1901.07095 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[54]
Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, Maxwell T. Hansen, Stephen R. Sharpe, and Adam P. Szczepaniak, “Unitarity of the infinite- volume three-particle scattering amplitude arising from a finite-volume formalism,” Phys. Rev. D100, 054508 (2019), arXiv:1905.11188 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[55]
Fernando Romero-L´ opez, Stephen R. Sharpe, Tyler D. Blanton, Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, and Maxwell T. Hansen, “Numerical exploration of three relativistic particles in a finite volume including two-particle resonances and bound states,” JHEP 10, 007 (2019), arXiv:1908.02411 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[56]
Energy shift of the three-particle system in a finite volume,
Jin-Yi Pang, Jia-Jun Wu, H. W. Hammer, Ulf-G. Meißner, and Akaki Rusetsky, “Energy shift of the three-particle system in a finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D99, 074513 (2019), arXiv:1902.01111 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[57]
Lattice model of heavy-light three-body system,
Peng Guo and Michael D¨ oring, “Lattice model of heavy-light three-body system,” Phys. Rev. D101, 034501 (2020), arXiv:1910.08624 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[58]
d-dimensional L¨ uscher’s formula and the near-threshold three-body states in a finite volume,
Shangguo Zhu and Shina Tan, “d-dimensional L¨ uscher’s formula and the near-threshold three-body states in a finite volume,” (2019), arXiv:1905.05117 [nucl-th]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[59]
Jin-Yi Pang, Jia-Jun Wu, and Li-Sheng Geng, “DDKsystem in finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D102, 114515 (2020), arXiv:2008.13014 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[60]
Generalizing the relativistic quantization condi- tion to include all three-pion isospin channels,
Maxwell T. Hansen, Fernando Romero-L´ opez, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Generalizing the relativistic quantization condi- tion to include all three-pion isospin channels,” JHEP07, 047 (2020), [Erratum: JHEP 02, 014 (2021)], arXiv:2003.10974 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[61]
Modeling few-body resonances in finite volume,
Peng Guo, “Modeling few-body resonances in finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D102, 054514 (2020), arXiv:2007.12790 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[62]
Threshold expansion formula ofNbosons in a finite volume from a variational approach,
Peng Guo, “Threshold expansion formula ofNbosons in a finite volume from a variational approach,” Phys. Rev. D101, 054512 (2020), arXiv:2002.04111 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[63]
Visualizing resonances in finite volume,
Peng Guo and Bingwei Long, “Visualizing resonances in finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D102, 074508 (2020), arXiv:2007.10895 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[64]
Multi-π + systems in a finite volume,
Peng Guo and Bingwei Long, “Multi-π + systems in a finite volume,” Phys. Rev. D101, 094510 (2020), arXiv:2002.09266 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[65]
Alternative derivation of the relativistic three-particle quantization condition,
Tyler D. Blanton and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Alternative derivation of the relativistic three-particle quantization condition,” Phys. Rev. D102, 054520 (2020), arXiv:2007.16188 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[66]
Relativistic three-particle quantization condition for nondegenerate scalars,
Tyler D. Blanton and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Relativistic three-particle quantization condition for nondegenerate scalars,” Phys. Rev. D103, 054503 (2021), arXiv:2011.05520 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[67]
Finite-volume energy shift of the three-pion ground state,
Fabian M¨ uller, Tiansu Yu, and Akaki Rusetsky, “Finite-volume energy shift of the three-pion ground state,” Phys. Rev. D103, 054506 (2021), arXiv:2011.14178 [hep-lat]
arXiv 2021
-
[68]
On the three-particle analog of the Lellouch-L¨ uscher formula,
Fabian M¨ uller and Akaki Rusetsky, “On the three-particle analog of the Lellouch-L¨ uscher formula,” JHEP03, 152 (2021), arXiv:2012.13957 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[69]
Solving relativistic three-body integral equations in the presence of bound states,
Andrew W. Jackura, Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, Sebastian M. Dawid, Md Habib E. Islam, and Connor McCarty, “Solving relativistic three-body integral equations in the presence of bound states,” Phys. Rev. D104, 014507 (2021), arXiv:2010.09820 [hep- lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[70]
Three-body interactions from the finite-volume QCD spectrum,
Ruair ´ ı Brett, Chris Culver, Maxim Mai, Andrei Alexandru, Michael D¨ oring, and Frank X. Lee, “Three-body interactions from the finite-volume QCD spectrum,” Phys. Rev. D104, 014501 (2021), arXiv:2101.06144 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[71]
Relativistic-invariant formulation of the NREFT three- 28 particle quantization condition,
Fabian M¨ uller, Jin-Yi Pang, Akaki Rusetsky, and Jia-Jun Wu, “Relativistic-invariant formulation of the NREFT three- 28 particle quantization condition,” JHEP02, 158 (2022), arXiv:2110.09351 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2022
-
[72]
Decay amplitudes to three hadrons from finite- volume matrix elements,
Maxwell T. Hansen, Fernando Romero-L´ opez, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Decay amplitudes to three hadrons from finite- volume matrix elements,” JHEP04, 113 (2021), arXiv:2101.10246 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[73]
Three-particle finite-volume formalism forπ+π+K+ and related systems,
Tyler D. Blanton and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Three-particle finite-volume formalism forπ+π+K+ and related systems,” Phys. Rev. D104, 034509 (2021), arXiv:2105.12094 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2021
-
[74]
Implementing the three-particle quantization condition forπ +π+K+ and related systems,
Tyler D. Blanton, Fernando Romero-L´ opez, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Implementing the three-particle quantization condition forπ +π+K+ and related systems,” JHEP02, 098 (2022), arXiv:2111.12734 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2022
-
[75]
Three-particle Lellouch-L¨ uscher formalism in moving frames,
Fabian M¨ uller, Jin-Yi Pang, Akaki Rusetsky, and Jia-Jun Wu, “Three-particle Lellouch-L¨ uscher formalism in moving frames,” JHEP02, 214 (2023), arXiv:2211.10126 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2023
-
[76]
Spurious poles in a finite volume,
Jin-Yi Pang, Martin Ebert, Hans-Werner Hammer, Fabian M¨ uller, Akaki Rusetsky, and Jia-Jun Wu, “Spurious poles in a finite volume,” JHEP07, 019 (2022), arXiv:2204.04807 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2022
-
[77]
Partial-wave projection of the one-particle exchange in three-body scattering amplitudes,
Andrew W. Jackura and Ra´ ul A. Brice˜ no, “Partial-wave projection of the one-particle exchange in three-body scattering amplitudes,” (2023), arXiv:2312.00625 [hep-ph]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2023
-
[78]
Lellouch-L¨ uscher factor for theK→3π decays,
Jin-Yi Pang, Rishabh Bubna, Fabian M¨ uller, Akaki Rusetsky, and Jia-Jun Wu, “Lellouch-L¨ uscher factor for theK→3π decays,” (2023), arXiv:2312.04391 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2023
-
[79]
Finite-volume energy shift of the three-nucleon ground state,
Rishabh Bubna, Fabian M¨ uller, and Akaki Rusetsky, “Finite-volume energy shift of the three-nucleon ground state,” Phys. Rev. D108, 014518 (2023), arXiv:2304.13635 [hep-lat]
arXiv 2023
-
[80]
Three relativistic neutrons in a finite volume,
Zachary T. Draper, Maxwell T. Hansen, Fernando Romero-L´ opez, and Stephen R. Sharpe, “Three relativistic neutrons in a finite volume,” JHEP07, 226 (2023), arXiv:2303.10219 [hep-lat]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2023
discussion (0)
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