Subregion observer rules from generalized entanglement wedges
Pith reviewed 2026-06-30 01:08 UTC · model grok-4.3
The pith
Rules for observers in holographic tensor networks are identical to those for generalized entanglement wedges.
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
The tensor network rules proposed by the Colorado group to incorporate observers are exactly equivalent to the rules proposed by Kaya-Rath-Ritchie to derive the generalized entanglement wedge proposal. This equivalence suggests a deeper link between AAIL-inspired observer rules and generalized entanglement wedges. Using this, the path integral rules are generalized to include observers in a bulk subregion, and conversely the observer rules derive the Bousso-Penington proposal for pointlike bulk regions in JT gravity.
What carries the argument
The exact equivalence between the Colorado group observer rules and the Kaya-Rath-Ritchie generalized entanglement wedge rules on holographic tensor networks.
If this is right
- The AAIL path integral rules can be generalized to include observers occupying a bulk subregion.
- The AAIL rules can be used to derive the Bousso-Penington proposal for pointlike bulk regions in JT gravity.
- A more general connection exists between AAIL-inspired observer rules and generalized entanglement wedges.
Where Pith is reading between the lines
- The equivalence may allow applying these rules to other holographic models beyond JT gravity.
- Observer effects could be reinterpreted through the geometry of generalized entanglement wedges in additional contexts.
- These unified rules might be tested in numerical simulations of tensor networks for consistency.
Load-bearing premise
The tensor network rules from the two papers are directly comparable and equivalent without additional context-specific adjustments.
What would settle it
Demonstrating a holographic tensor network example where the two rule sets produce different modifications to the network would disprove the claimed equivalence.
read the original abstract
We consider rules for modifying holographic tensor networks proposed in two independent contexts: by the Colorado (CO) group in 2503.09681 to incorporate observers in holographic maps, and by Kaya-Rath-Ritchie (KRR) in 2506.10064 to derive the Bousso-Penington generalized entanglement wedge proposal. Interestingly, these two sets of tensor network rules are exactly equivalent. This suggests a more general connection between these Abdalla-Antonini-Iliesiu-Levine (AAIL) inspired observer rules and generalized entanglement wedges. To pursue this connection, we first use KRR's analogous rules for the gravitational path integral (based on fixed geometry states) to generalize AAIL's path integral rules to include observers occupying a bulk subregion. Additionally, we leverage the connection in the opposite direction by using the AAIL rules to derive the Bousso-Penington proposal for pointlike bulk regions in JT gravity.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The manuscript claims that the tensor network modification rules introduced by the Colorado (CO) group in arXiv:2503.09681 (to incorporate observers into holographic maps) are exactly equivalent to the rules proposed by Kaya-Rath-Ritchie (KRR) in arXiv:2506.10064 (to realize the Bousso-Penington generalized entanglement wedge). It leverages this asserted equivalence in both directions: first, applying KRR-style rules to generalize the Abdalla-Antonini-Iliesiu-Levine (AAIL) path-integral rules so that observers occupy bulk subregions; second, using AAIL rules to derive the Bousso-Penington proposal for pointlike bulk regions in JT gravity.
Significance. If the claimed exact equivalence is established with a canonical, one-to-one mapping, the result would link two independently motivated tensor-network constructions and thereby connect observer-inclusive holographic maps with generalized entanglement wedges. The bidirectional applications (generalizing AAIL rules via KRR and deriving Bousso-Penington via AAIL) would then constitute a non-trivial consistency check across tensor networks and gravitational path integrals.
major comments (2)
- [Abstract, §1] Abstract and opening paragraphs: the central claim that the CO and KRR rule sets are 'exactly equivalent' is stated without an explicit bijection or canonical dictionary identifying which network elements (tensors, legs, or cuts) correspond to observer insertions versus generalized-wedge modifications. Because the original proposals start from distinct physical motivations, the equivalence is load-bearing for all subsequent generalizations; the manuscript must demonstrate that every allowed modification under one set maps uniquely to a modification under the other with identical contraction effects.
- [Path-integral generalization section] Section deriving the path-integral generalization: the step that uses KRR's fixed-geometry rules to extend AAIL's observer rules to bulk subregions assumes the tensor-network equivalence carries over directly to the gravitational path integral. No explicit check is provided that the observer subregion insertion commutes with the fixed-geometry constraint or that the resulting rules remain independent of the particular bulk geometry chosen.
minor comments (2)
- [§2] Notation for the two rule sets should be introduced with a side-by-side table early in the manuscript to make the claimed equivalence easier to verify.
- [Introduction] The citations to 2503.09681 and 2506.10064 appear only in the abstract and introduction; a dedicated comparison subsection would improve readability.
Simulated Author's Rebuttal
We thank the referee for their careful reading and constructive comments on our manuscript. We address the two major comments point by point below, providing clarifications on the equivalence and the path-integral generalization while committing to targeted revisions for improved clarity.
read point-by-point responses
-
Referee: [Abstract, §1] Abstract and opening paragraphs: the central claim that the CO and KRR rule sets are 'exactly equivalent' is stated without an explicit bijection or canonical dictionary identifying which network elements (tensors, legs, or cuts) correspond to observer insertions versus generalized-wedge modifications. Because the original proposals start from distinct physical motivations, the equivalence is load-bearing for all subsequent generalizations; the manuscript must demonstrate that every allowed modification under one set maps uniquely to a modification under the other with identical contraction effects.
Authors: In Section 2 we construct the equivalence by enumerating all CO modifications (observer insertions on legs or tensors) and showing they produce identical contraction outcomes to the corresponding KRR modifications (wedge cuts or leg additions). Each pair is matched one-to-one with the same effect on the reduced density matrix. We will add an explicit dictionary table in the revised manuscript to make the bijection immediately visible without altering the existing proofs. revision: yes
-
Referee: [Path-integral generalization section] Section deriving the path-integral generalization: the step that uses KRR's fixed-geometry rules to extend AAIL's observer rules to bulk subregions assumes the tensor-network equivalence carries over directly to the gravitational path integral. No explicit check is provided that the observer subregion insertion commutes with the fixed-geometry constraint or that the resulting rules remain independent of the particular bulk geometry chosen.
Authors: Because the KRR rules are defined to act on fixed-geometry states and the CO rules are shown to be identical at the tensor-network level, the subregion insertion inherits the same locality and commutes with the fixed-geometry projector by construction. The resulting path-integral rules are therefore geometry-independent in the same sense as the original KRR rules. We will add one clarifying paragraph in the generalization section that explicitly notes this commutation property. revision: partial
Circularity Check
No significant circularity; equivalence claim rests on external independent rules.
full rationale
The derivation begins from the tensor network modification rules proposed in two independent prior works (2503.09681 by CO group and 2506.10064 by KRR). The paper observes their exact equivalence as an empirical fact about those external rule sets, then applies the connection bidirectionally to generalize AAIL path-integral rules and derive Bousso-Penington for JT gravity. No step reduces a prediction to a fitted parameter, renames a known result, or relies on a self-citation chain whose load-bearing premise is unverified. The cited rules are treated as given inputs whose equivalence is newly noted rather than constructed by definition within this manuscript.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
Reference graph
Works this paper leans on
- [1]
-
[2]
S. Kaya, P. Rath and K. Ritchie,Hollow-grams: Generalized entanglement wedges from the gravitational path integral,Journal of High Energy Physics2025(Sept., 2025) 32, [2506.10064]
arXiv 2025
-
[3]
S. W. Hawking,Particle creation by black holes,Communications in Mathematical Physics43 (Aug., 1975) 199–220
1975
-
[4]
Almheiri, T
A. Almheiri, T. Hartman, J. Maldacena, E. Shaghoulian and A. Tajdini,Replica wormholes and the entropy of Hawking radiation,Journal of High Energy Physics2020(May, 2020) 13
2020
-
[5]
G. Penington, S. H. Shenker, D. Stanford and Z. Yang,Replica wormholes and the black hole interior,1911.11977
Pith/arXiv arXiv 1911
- [6]
-
[7]
Maldacena and L
J. Maldacena and L. Maoz,Wormholes in AdS,Journal of High Energy Physics2004(Mar.,
-
[8]
A. Almheiri, R. Mahajan, J. Maldacena and Y. Zhao,The Page curve of Hawking radiation from semiclassical geometry,Journal of High Energy Physics2020(Mar., 2020) 149, [1908.10996]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2020
-
[9]
Marolf and H
D. Marolf and H. Maxfield,Transcending the ensemble: Baby universes, spacetime wormholes, and the order and disorder of black hole information,Journal of High Energy Physics2020 (Aug., 2020) 44
2020
-
[10]
J. McNamara and C. Vafa,Baby Universes, Holography, and the Swampland,2004.06738
arXiv 2004
-
[11]
M. Usatyuk, Z.-Y. Wang and Y. Zhao,Closed universes in two dimensional gravity,SciPost Physics17(Aug., 2024) 051, [2402.00098]. – 39 –
arXiv 2024
-
[12]
Usatyuk and Y
M. Usatyuk and Y. Zhao,Closed universes, factorization, and ensemble averaging,Journal of High Energy Physics2025(Feb., 2025) 52
2025
-
[13]
S. Antonini and P. Rath,Do holographic CFT states have unique semiclassical bulk duals?, 2408.02720
- [14]
-
[15]
A. I. Abdalla, S. Antonini, L. V. Iliesiu and A. Levine,The gravitational path integral from an observer’s point of view,Journal of High Energy Physics2025(May, 2025) 59, [2501.02632]
arXiv 2025
-
[16]
S. Ryu and T. Takayanagi,Holographic Derivation of Entanglement Entropy from AdS/CFT, Physical Review Letters96(May, 2006) 181602, [hep-th/0603001]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2006
-
[17]
V. E. Hubeny, M. Rangamani and T. Takayanagi,A covariant holographic entanglement entropy proposal,Journal of High Energy Physics2007(July, 2007) 062
2007
-
[18]
T. Faulkner, A. Lewkowycz and J. Maldacena,Quantum corrections to holographic entanglement entropy,Journal of High Energy Physics2013(Nov., 2013) 74, [1307.2892]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2013
-
[19]
N. Engelhardt and A. C. Wall,Quantum Extremal Surfaces: Holographic Entanglement Entropy beyond the Classical Regime,Journal of High Energy Physics2015(Jan., 2015) 73, [1408.3203]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2015
-
[20]
Penington,Entanglement wedge reconstruction and the information paradox,Journal of High Energy Physics2020(Sept., 2020) 2
G. Penington,Entanglement wedge reconstruction and the information paradox,Journal of High Energy Physics2020(Sept., 2020) 2
2020
-
[21]
A. Almheiri, N. Engelhardt, D. Marolf and H. Maxfield,The entropy of bulk quantum fields and the entanglement wedge of an evaporating black hole,Journal of High Energy Physics2019 (Dec., 2019) 63, [1905.08762]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[22]
Bousso and G
R. Bousso and G. Penington,Entanglement wedges for gravitating regions,Physical Review D 107(Apr., 2023) 086002
2023
-
[23]
Bousso and G
R. Bousso and G. Penington,Holograms in our world,Physical Review D108(Aug., 2023) 046007
2023
-
[24]
A. Sahu, J. van der Heijden, M. V. Raamsdonk and R. Zibakhsh,Algebras for generalized entanglement wedges,2511.21852
-
[25]
G. Penington, M. Walter and F. Witteveen,Fun with replicas: tripartitions in tensor networks and gravity,JHEP05(2023) 008, [2211.16045]
arXiv 2023
-
[26]
C. Akers and P. Rath,Holographic Renyi Entropy from Quantum Error Correction,Journal of High Energy Physics2019(May, 2019) 52, [1811.05171]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
-
[27]
X. Dong, D. Harlow and D. Marolf,Flat entanglement spectra in fixed-area states of quantum gravity,Journal of High Energy Physics2019(Oct., 2019) 240, [1811.05382]
arXiv 2019
-
[28]
Chandrasekaran, R
V. Chandrasekaran, R. Longo, G. Penington and E. Witten,An algebra of observables for de Sitter space,Journal of High Energy Physics2023(Feb., 2023) 82. – 40 –
2023
-
[29]
Witten,Algebras, Regions, and Observers,2303.02837
E. Witten,Algebras, Regions, and Observers,2303.02837
-
[30]
Witten,A background-independent algebra in quantum gravity,Journal of High Energy Physics2024(Mar., 2024) 77
E. Witten,A background-independent algebra in quantum gravity,Journal of High Energy Physics2024(Mar., 2024) 77
2024
-
[31]
J. D. Vuyst, S. Eccles, P. A. Hoehn and J. Kirklin,Gravitational entropy is observer-dependent, Journal of High Energy Physics2025(July, 2025) 146, [2405.00114]
arXiv 2025
-
[32]
J. Kudler-Flam, S. Leutheusser and G. Satishchandran,Algebraic Observational Cosmology, 2406.01669
-
[33]
C.-H. Chen and G. Penington,A clock is just a way to tell the time: Gravitational algebras in cosmological spacetimes,2406.02116
-
[34]
D. K. Kolchmeyer and H. Liu,Chaos and the Emergence of the Cosmological Horizon, 2411.08090
-
[35]
Maldacena,Real observers solving imaginary problems,2412.14014
J. Maldacena,Real observers solving imaginary problems,2412.14014
-
[36]
D. Tietto and H. Verlinde,A microscopic model of de Sitter spacetime with an observer, 2502.03869
-
[37]
V. Balasubramanian and C. Cummings,The entropy of finite gravitating regions,2312.08434
- [38]
-
[39]
Y. Nomura and T. Ugajin,Nonperturbative Quantum Gravity in a Closed Lorentzian Universe, 2505.20390
-
[40]
Y. Nomura and T. Ugajin,Physical Predictions in Closed Quantum Gravity,2602.13387
-
[41]
X. Dong, X.-L. Qi, Z. Shangnan and Z. Yang,Effective entropy of quantum fields coupled with gravity,JHEP10(2020) 052, [2007.02987]
arXiv 2020
-
[42]
H. Z. Chen,Observers seeing gravitational Hilbert spaces: Abstract sources for an abstract path integral,2505.15892
-
[43]
R. Bousso, S. Kaya, G. Lin and A. Shahbazi-Moghaddam,Quantum state of a gravitating region,2605.28958
-
[44]
Wei,Pure states for subregions in gravity and their entanglement entropy,2606.03977
Z. Wei,Pure states for subregions in gravity and their entanglement entropy,2606.03977
-
[45]
Swingle,Entanglement Renormalization and Holography,Phys
B. Swingle,Entanglement Renormalization and Holography,Phys. Rev. D86(2012) 065007, [0905.1317]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2012
-
[46]
F. Pastawski, B. Yoshida, D. Harlow and J. Preskill,Holographic quantum error-correcting codes: Toy models for the bulk/boundary correspondence,JHEP06(2015) 149, [1503.06237]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2015
-
[47]
P. Hayden, S. Nezami, X.-L. Qi, N. Thomas, M. Walter and Z. Yang,Holographic duality from random tensor networks,JHEP11(2016) 009, [1601.01694]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2016
-
[48]
D. Harlow and T. Numasawa,Gauging spacetime inversions in quantum gravity,2311.09978
-
[49]
Bueller, O
G. Bueller, O. DeWolfe and K. Higginbotham,Tensor networks for black hole interiors: – 41 – Non-isometries, quantum extremal surfaces, and wormholes,Journal of High Energy Physics 2024(Oct., 2024) 12
2024
-
[50]
X. Dong, J. Kudler-Flam and P. Rath,A Modified Cosmic Brane Proposal for Holographic Renyi Entropy,Journal of High Energy Physics2024(June, 2024) 120, [2312.04625]
arXiv 2024
-
[51]
L. V. Iliesiu, A. Levine, H. W. Lin, H. Maxfield and M. Mezei,On the non-perturbative bulk Hilbert space of JT gravity,Journal of High Energy Physics2024(Oct., 2024) 220
2024
-
[52]
G. Penington and P. Rath,The Diagonal Approximation for Holographic R´ enyi Entropies, 2412.03670
-
[53]
J. Held, X. Liu, D. Marolf and Z. Wang,Euclidean and complex geometries from real-time computations of gravitational R´ enyi entropies,JHEP02(2025) 136, [2409.17428]
arXiv 2025
-
[54]
A. Goel, H. T. Lam, G. J. Turiaci and H. Verlinde,Expanding the Black Hole Interior: Partially Entangled Thermal States in SYK,JHEP02(2019) 156, [1807.03916]
Pith/arXiv arXiv 2019
- [55]
-
[56]
A. I. Abdalla, S. Antonini, R. Bousso, L. V. Iliesiu, A. Levine and A. Shahbazi-Moghaddam, Consistent Evaluation of the No-Boundary Proposal,2602.02682
-
[57]
Harlow,Observers,$α$-parameters, and the Hartle-Hawking state,2602.03835
D. Harlow,Observers,$α$-parameters, and the Hartle-Hawking state,2602.03835
-
[58]
S. Antonini, P. Rath, M. Sasieta, B. Swingle and A. V. L´ opez,The Baby Universe is Fine and the CFT Knows It: On Holography for Closed Universes,2507.10649
-
[59]
S. Antonini, M. Sasieta and B. Swingle,Cosmology from random entanglement,2307.14416
-
[60]
To appear
A. I. Abdalla, S. Antonini, L. V. Iliesiu and A. Levine, “To appear.”
-
[61]
D. Harlow and D. Jafferis,The factorization problem in Jackiw-Teitelboim gravity,1804.01081. – 42 –
discussion (0)
Sign in with ORCID, Apple, or X to comment. Anyone can read and Pith papers without signing in.