REVIEW 4 major objections 4 minor 2 cited by
Capturing the Temporal Dependence of Training Data Influence
T0 review · 4 major / 4 minor · reviewed 2026-08-11 · deepseek-v4-flash
Pith's one-line read Training-data influence can be approximated as a dot product between a precomputed data value embedding and the final model gradient.
desk verdict A solid, honest contribution to order-aware data attribution with one under-supported bridge: the SGD-derived embedding is used to make claims about AdamW-trained LLMs. read the letter →
The pith
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
The reading
What carries the argument
The load-bearing object is the data value embedding $\mathrm{DVEmb}^{(t_s)}(z_*)$, a vector in parameter-gradient space defined at each training iteration as the gradient of the point at that iteration propagated forward through the products $(I-\eta_k H_k)$ over all subsequent iterations. The central identity is Equation (2) in the paper, which converts any test-time attribution into a dot product with this embedding. To make the embedding computable, the paper relies on the Generalized Gauss-Newton approximation of the Hessians, a recursive backward algorithm (Theorem 2) that expresses each embedding in terms of later embeddings and gradient similarities, and a layer-wise independence assumption plus random projections for storage. Influence checkpointing parallelizes the backward pass by running the recursion from multiple checkpoints, and also enables tracking how a fixed point's influence changes across intermediate checkpoints.
What would settle it
Retrain the small MLP fidelity experiment of Section 5.1 switching the optimizer from SGD to AdamW with the same batch order, and measure the Spearman correlation between ground-truth trajectory-specific LOO and data value embedding scores; a correlation collapse would show the method fails outside SGD. Alternatively, rerun the Pythia-410M pretraining with an actual canonicalized SGD schedule and check whether the three-regime curve matches the AdamW-trained results.
Extended reading notes
Core claim
On its own terms, the paper establishes that the trajectory-specific leave-one-out loss change from removing a training point $z_*$ used at iteration $t_s$ is well approximated by $\nabla\ell(\theta_T,z^{(\text{val})})^\top \mathrm{DVEmb}^{(t_s)}(z_*)$, where $\mathrm{DVEmb}^{(t_s)}(z_*) = \eta_{t_s}\left[\prod_{k=t_s+1}^{T-1}(I-\eta_k H_k)\right]\nabla\ell(\theta_{t_s},z_*)$ accumulates the point's gradient through the remaining training steps. Using the Generalized Gauss-Newton approximation for each Hessian, the embeddings can be computed recursively from the final iteration backward, and gradient decomposition plus random projection keeps storage and compute within reach of foundation-model training. The consequence is that influence estimates are no longer blind to data ordering: identical points at different training times receive different scores, and duplicate points no longer collapse to one attribution. Empirically, the paper reports a consistent three-regime pattern in LLM pretraining and shows that applying online data selection only during the early and late regimes recovers the bulk of the benefit of continuous selection.
Load-bearing premise
The derivation assumes plain SGD, yet the large-scale experiments are run with AdamW; if the SGD-based embedding does not faithfully represent influence under Adam-style updates, the reported temporal regimes and the data-selection timing conclusions are not supported.
Editorial extensions
If this is right
- If the approximation holds, influence attribution for any test query becomes a single dot product per training point, so no retraining and no advance knowledge of validation data are needed.
- Data selection during only the high-influence early phase (under 4% of training) yields roughly half of the gain of continuous selection, and early-plus-late selection yields most of it at over 5x less compute.
- The three-regime influence pattern gives a principled way to schedule online data curation and checkpoint-based attribution in LLM pretraining.
- Influence functions, which assign identical scores to identical points regardless of position, are shown to be a limiting case of the trajectory-based view under strong stationarity assumptions, so their known instability is explained rather than incidental.
Reading between the lines
- If the SGD-derived embedding transfers to optimizers like Adam or Lion, the same dot-product machinery would give a practical attribution tool for routine LLM training runs; a direct test is to compare embedding scores against ground-truth LOO on a small AdamW-trained model.
- The low-influence basin suggests that gradient similarity to validation data is least informative mid-training; this might mean that curriculum or data-pruning schedules should concentrate utility measurements at the start and near the end, which is testable by ablating selection windows at finer granularity.
- The recursive interpretation (an early point's influence is reduced when later similar points appear) implies a notion of influence saturation that could be used to estimate when a corpus is redundant, e.g., by measuring how much embedding norms decay after repeated similar examples.
- The checkpoint reconstruction from saved checkpoints alone (Appendix C.10) suggests that the method can be retrofitted to existing training logs that did not store per-step gradients, assuming one update per checkpoint.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper argues that classical influence functions are inadequate for modern training pipelines because they assume permutation-invariance with respect to training data. It formalizes trajectory-specific leave-one-out (TSLOO) influence, which measures the change in validation loss when a training point is removed from the specific iteration at which it was used, and proposes data value embedding (DVE) as an efficient approximation. The core identity is Eq. (2): DVE for a training point z* at iteration ts is the product of a learning-rate factor, a product of Hessian terms (I - η_k H_k), and the gradient at z*, so that TSLOO can be approximated by a dot product of DVE with the final-model validation gradient. The paper derives a recursive GGN-based computation, introduces influence checkpointing for parallelism, and compares favorably to LoGRA in efficiency. Experiments include MNIST fidelity checks against exact retraining LOO, mislabeled-data detection and data selection benchmarks, and large-scale studies on Pythia-410M and GPT-2 that suggest three temporal influence regimes and support early+late online data selection. The paper closes by acknowledging that DVE is specifically tailored to SGD and not directly extendable to Adam.
Significance. If the core approximation holds, this is a valuable contribution: DVE provides a validation-agnostic, dot-product-based attribution estimator that is sensitive to training order, and the projected-gradient storage scheme is markedly cheaper than the most efficient influence-function implementation on the reported Pythia run. The claimed empirical phenomena—high influence at early and late training stages and the effectiveness of early+late data selection—are concrete, falsifiable, and potentially useful for data curation. The algorithmic design, including per-layer computation and checkpointing, is thoughtful. The main weakness is that the load-bearing temporal and optimizer claims are not directly validated: the fidelity experiments do not isolate removal time, the large-scale experiments use AdamW while the derivation assumes SGD, and the theory bounds parameter error rather than the loss difference that TSLOO defines. The paper would also benefit from code and seed-level details to make the large-scale results reproducible.
major comments (4)
- [§5.3, Fig. 1; Appendix E.1; Eq. (2)] The large-scale experiments in Figures 1, 4, and 9 are run with AdamW (Appendix E.1: optimizer AdamW, learning rate 3e-4, weight decay 0.1), while Eq. (1)–(2) and Theorem 2 are derived from the plain SGD update θ_{t+1} = θ_t − η_t Σ_{z∈B_t} ∇ℓ(θ_t,z). Section 6 concedes that DVE is not directly extendable to Adam due to its normalization terms. Thus the three-regime curve in Figure 1(a) and the early+late data-selection result in Figure 1(b) rely on an unvalidated bridge from an SGD derivation to AdamW training dynamics. Please either extend the recursion to AdamW (for example under a diagonal-preconditioner approximation) or validate DVE against ground-truth TSLOO on small AdamW-trained models across training time; at minimum, the large-scale claims should be labeled as relying on an SGD proxy for Adam.
- [§5.1, Figs. 3, 6, 7] The fidelity experiments do not directly validate the temporal dependence that is the paper's central claim. Single-epoch removal removes a point only from the last epoch, and all-epoch removal removes it from every epoch; neither setting reports DVE versus exact TSLOO as a function of ts. I ask for an experiment in which the same training point is removed at several different iterations (e.g., early, middle, and late training) and the Spearman correlation between DVE scores and exact retraining-based TSLOO is reported for each removal time. Without such a test, the statement that DVE 'captures the temporal dependence of data influence' is not directly supported by the fidelity evidence.
- [Appendix C.2, Theorem 3, Eq. (11)] Theorem 3 bounds the parameter-space error ∥(θ_T − θ'_T) − Δθ∥, but TSLOO is defined as a loss difference and Eq. (1) approximates it by a first-order Taylor expansion of the loss. Bounding the parameter error does not by itself bound |ℓ(θ'_T,z_val) − ℓ(θ_T,z_val) − ∇ℓ(θ_T,z_val)ᵀ Δθ|; an additional Taylor remainder bound is needed. The proof also relies on the unverified assumption H_t ⪯ Λ/√t I, which is asserted with anecdotal justification and is not checked in any of the experimental settings. As stated, the theoretical guarantee is one step removed from the quantity the method claims to approximate.
- [Fig. 1(b), §5.3] The key practical claim—that early+late selection recovers 96% of the improvement of continuous selection while reducing computational overhead by more than 5×—is reported without error bars, seed counts, or the total number of training iterations in the main text. Since this result drives the proposed data-curation strategy, please report multiple seeds with variance and specify the full training length and the precise computational-overhead accounting.
minor comments (4)
- [§6, Limitations] The sentence 'While using as a proxy for Adam has proved to be effective in our experiment' is missing its subject and should read 'While using SGD as a proxy for Adam ...'; as written, it also overstates the evidence, since no fidelity experiment uses AdamW.
- [Appendix C.2, Hessian decay justification] The sentence 'this assumption aligns with empirical findings in deep learning literature ()' contains an empty citation; either provide the reference or remove the claim.
- [Appendix E.3.1] The text says 'In Figure 7(b), we consider a simplified setting...' but the discussion is about the analytical curves shown in Figure 8(b); the figure reference should be corrected.
- [§4.4, Appendix C.7] The claim that influence checkpointing 'reduces the overall computational cost by K times' should be stated as reducing wall-clock time when K parallel workers are available; the total number of FLOPs is not reduced by a factor of K.
Circularity Check
No significant circularity: the data value embedding is defined as the test-independent factor of a previously established unrolled-differentiation approximation, and the method is validated against externally computed trajectory-specific LOO.
full rationale
The paper's derivation chain is self-contained and not circular. Trajectory-specific LOO (Definition 1) is defined by counterfactual retraining with a data point removed at a specific iteration. Equation (1) is the standard first-order unrolled-differentiation approximation, credited to Hara et al. (2019), and Equation (2) defines DVEmb as exactly the factor multiplying the test gradient in that approximation. Thus the central dot-product formula is true by construction, but this is a definition, not a validation: the paper's fidelity experiments (Section 5.1 and Appendix E.2) compare DVEmb-based scores against ground-truth TSLOO values obtained by actual retraining, on MNIST MLPs and CNNs, with no fitted constants and no prediction of a quantity used to fit the method. Theorem 2 is an algebraic recursive rearrangement of the same definition under the generalized Gauss-Newton approximation, so it introduces no new empirical circularity. The main weakness flagged in the Limitations section is that DVEmb is derived for SGD while the large-scale experiments use AdamW; this is an external validity gap, not a circular step. Self-citations, such as Wang et al. (2024c) for the gradient decomposition trick, are implementation details and are not load-bearing for the core approximation. No uniqueness theorem or ansatz from the authors' prior work is invoked to force the choice of data value embedding. Therefore the central claim does not reduce to its own inputs.
Assumptions & free parameters
free parameters (2)
- Projection dimension per layer =
1024
- Checkpoint count K =
not reported for main experiments
assumptions (7)
- domain assumption Generalized Gauss-Newton (GGN) approximation H_t ≈ Σ_{z∈B_t} ∇ℓ(θ_t,z) ∇ℓ(θ_t,z)^T for the Hessian
- domain assumption Layer-wise independence of gradients
- ad hoc to paper Hessian spectral norm decay H_t ⪯ Λ/√t I
- domain assumption Learning rate schedule η_t = η_max/√t with η_max = O(1/√T)
- standard math Bounded gradient norm ∥∇ℓ∥ ≤ G and L-Lipschitz Hessian
- domain assumption SGD can serve as a proxy for AdamW influence
- domain assumption Random projections preserve the gradient inner products needed for recursion
Cite this review
Pith. "Pith review of Capturing the Temporal Dependence of Training Data Influence." pith.science (2026). https://pith.science/paper/VV5TQXKP
@misc{pith2026241209538,
author = {Pith},
title = {Pith review of: Capturing the Temporal Dependence of Training Data Influence},
year = {2026},
howpublished = {\url{https://pith.science/paper/VV5TQXKP}},
note = {Machine review of arXiv:2412.09538}
}
read the original abstract
Traditional data influence estimation methods, like influence function, assume that learning algorithms are permutation-invariant with respect to training data. However, modern training paradigms, especially for foundation models using stochastic algorithms and multi-stage curricula, are sensitive to data ordering, thus violating this assumption. This mismatch renders influence functions inadequate for answering a critical question in machine learning: How can we capture the dependence of data influence on the optimization trajectory during training? To address this gap, we formalize the concept of trajectory-specific leave-one-out (LOO) influence, which quantifies the impact of removing a data point from a specific iteration during training, accounting for the exact sequence of data encountered and the model's optimization trajectory. However, exactly evaluating the trajectory-specific LOO presents a significant computational challenge. To address this, we propose data value embedding, a novel technique enabling efficient approximation of trajectory-specific LOO. Specifically, we compute a training data embedding that encapsulates the cumulative interactions between data and the evolving model parameters. The LOO can then be efficiently approximated through a simple dot-product between the data value embedding and the gradient of the given test data. As data value embedding captures training data ordering, it offers valuable insights into model training dynamics. In particular, we uncover distinct phases of data influence, revealing that data points in the early and late stages of training exert a greater impact on the final model. These insights translate into actionable strategies for managing the computational overhead of data selection by strategically timing the selection process, potentially opening new avenues in data curation research.
Figures
Figures from the paper (11 more)
Forward citations
Cited by 2 Pith papers
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Reference graph
Works this paper leans on
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