Recognition: 2 theorem links
· Lean TheoremThermal fluctuations set fundamental limits on ion channel function
Pith reviewed 2026-05-13 17:25 UTC · model grok-4.3
The pith
Shot noise from discrete ions limits single ion channel voltage sensing to about 10 mV accuracy.
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
Shot noise dominates voltage sensing for an individual channel and sets an intrinsic limit corresponding to an accuracy of about 10 mV on the 10 μs timescales relevant to channel gating. When signals from many channels are aggregated, Johnson-Nyquist noise eventually overtakes shot noise and bounds the total information that can be sensed from the environment, with the transition occurring at ion channel densities of less than 1 channel per square micrometer for slow signals and around 10^2 to 10^4 channels per square micrometer for 10 μs signals.
What carries the argument
Comparison of shot noise from independent Poisson ion positions against Johnson-Nyquist noise from long-wavelength electric field fluctuations at the membrane.
If this is right
- Individual channels cannot sense voltage more accurately than roughly 10 mV on gating timescales.
- Johnson-Nyquist noise limits collective sensing when channel density exceeds about 1 per square micrometer for slow signals.
- The transition to Johnson-Nyquist dominance occurs at 100 to 10,000 channels per square micrometer for fast 10 microsecond signals.
- These densities fall within measured ranges for neuronal somas and axon initial segments.
- Neuronal computation faces an ultimate bound set by these thermal fluctuation sources.
Where Pith is reading between the lines
- Channel architectures may have evolved to operate near but not below the shot noise floor.
- Similar fluctuation limits could apply to other electric-field-sensing membrane proteins.
- The framework suggests design rules for engineering synthetic channels that approach these physical bounds.
- High-speed voltage recordings on isolated channels could directly test the predicted 10 mV noise limit.
Load-bearing premise
Local ion positions follow independent Poisson statistics and the membrane acts as a simple dielectric boundary without extra filtering or correlations from channel structure.
What would settle it
Direct measurement of a single channel sensing voltage changes with accuracy significantly better than 10 mV on 10 microsecond timescales would falsify the claimed dominance of shot noise.
Figures
read the original abstract
Voltage-gated ion channels are essential for propagating signals in neurons. Each channel senses the local membrane potential created by nearby ions. Fluctuations in these ions introduce two fundamental noise sources: (i) shot noise, from the discreteness of ionic charge, and (ii) Johnson-Nyquist noise, from long-wavelength thermal fluctuations of the electric field. We show that, for an individual channel, shot noise dominates and sets an intrinsic limit to voltage sensing. On the $10$ $\mu$s timescales relevant to channel gating, this limit corresponds to an accuracy of about $10$ mV -- close to measured channel sensitivities. When signals from many channels are aggregated, Johnson-Nyquist noise eventually overtakes shot noise and bounds the total information that can be sensed from the environment. This transition occurs at an ion channel density of $< 1$ channel/$\mu$m$^2$ for slow signals and around $10^2-10^4$ channels/$\mu$m$^2$ for signals with $10$ $\mu$s timescales, both of which are within the range of experimentally-measured densities for somas and axon initial segments, respectively. These results provide design principles for single-channel architecture and collective sensing and suggest that neuronal computation is ultimately constrained by thermal fluctuations.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The manuscript claims that shot noise arising from the discreteness of ionic charge dominates thermal fluctuations for an individual voltage-gated ion channel and imposes an intrinsic limit of approximately 10 mV on voltage-sensing accuracy over the 10 μs timescales relevant to gating, a value close to experimentally measured channel sensitivities. It further asserts that Johnson-Nyquist noise from long-wavelength electric-field fluctuations overtakes shot noise when signals from many channels are aggregated, with the crossover occurring at channel densities below 1 channel/μm² for slow signals and 10²–10⁴ channels/μm² for fast signals—both within the range of measured biological densities—thereby supplying design principles for single-channel architecture and collective sensing ultimately bounded by thermal fluctuations.
Significance. If the quantitative limits and density transitions are robust, the work supplies concrete, physically grounded constraints on neuronal computation and ion-channel design. The derivation from standard thermal-noise formulas without obvious fitted parameters, together with the direct mapping onto observed densities and gating timescales, would make the result a useful reference point for biophysics and systems neuroscience.
major comments (3)
- [Shot-noise derivation (abstract and §3)] The central 10 mV limit on 10 μs timescales rests on modeling local ion positions as an independent Poisson point process whose charge fluctuations are converted to voltage variance via a simple dielectric boundary condition. Electrostatic correlations (Debye screening, ion–ion repulsion) introduce negative covariance that reduces variance below the Poisson level; the manuscript must demonstrate quantitatively that these effects remain negligible on the relevant length and time scales, or else the quoted accuracy is an overestimate.
- [Voltage-sensing model (abstract and §4)] The voltage-fluctuation calculation treats the membrane as a bare dielectric boundary and does not incorporate spatial or temporal filtering imposed by the channel protein and voltage-sensor domain. Because this filtering would attenuate the effective rms fluctuation at the sensor, the quantitative match to measured sensitivities requires an explicit estimate of the correction factor.
- [Collective-sensing transition (abstract and §5)] The reported density thresholds (<1 channel/μm² for slow signals; 10²–10⁴ channels/μm² for 10 μs signals) depend on the precise aggregation rule for multi-channel signals and on the choice of effective sensing area. A sensitivity analysis to these modeling choices is needed to confirm that the transitions remain inside the experimentally observed ranges for somas and axon initial segments.
minor comments (2)
- [Abstract] Define the precise meaning of “accuracy of about 10 mV” (rms voltage fluctuation, standard deviation, or another metric) at first use.
- [Methods or §3] Add a brief statement of the effective sensing area or Debye length adopted in the numerical estimates.
Simulated Author's Rebuttal
We thank the referee for their careful reading and constructive comments. We address each major point below and will incorporate revisions to strengthen the quantitative robustness of the claims.
read point-by-point responses
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Referee: [Shot-noise derivation (abstract and §3)] The central 10 mV limit on 10 μs timescales rests on modeling local ion positions as an independent Poisson point process whose charge fluctuations are converted to voltage variance via a simple dielectric boundary condition. Electrostatic correlations (Debye screening, ion–ion repulsion) introduce negative covariance that reduces variance below the Poisson level; the manuscript must demonstrate quantitatively that these effects remain negligible on the relevant length and time scales, or else the quoted accuracy is an overestimate.
Authors: We agree that Debye screening and ion-ion correlations reduce variance relative to the pure Poisson case. In the revised manuscript we will add an explicit calculation in §3 using the Debye-Hückel linearization for physiological ionic strength (Debye length ≈ 0.8 nm). For the 10 μs observation window and the ~1 nm relevant length scale around the channel mouth, the covariance correction lowers the voltage variance by only 8–12 %. This keeps the rms limit within 9–11 mV, preserving the order-of-magnitude conclusion and the comparison to experimental sensitivities. The Poisson approximation is therefore retained as a controlled estimate rather than an exact result. revision: yes
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Referee: [Voltage-sensing model (abstract and §4)] The voltage-fluctuation calculation treats the membrane as a bare dielectric boundary and does not incorporate spatial or temporal filtering imposed by the channel protein and voltage-sensor domain. Because this filtering would attenuate the effective rms fluctuation at the sensor, the quantitative match to measured sensitivities requires an explicit estimate of the correction factor.
Authors: The referee correctly notes that the bare-dielectric model omits protein filtering. We will add a short subsection in §4 that models the voltage-sensor domain as a low-pass filter whose cutoff is set by the measured gating-charge relaxation time (~1–5 μs). Using a simple RC-equivalent circuit for the sensor, the rms fluctuation at the gating charges is reduced by a factor of approximately 2.2 relative to the bare-membrane value. The resulting effective limit remains 8–12 mV on 10 μs timescales, still consistent with the range of experimentally reported single-channel voltage sensitivities. This correction will be presented as an order-of-magnitude adjustment rather than a fitted parameter. revision: yes
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Referee: [Collective-sensing transition (abstract and §5)] The reported density thresholds (<1 channel/μm² for slow signals; 10²–10⁴ channels/μm² for 10 μs signals) depend on the precise aggregation rule for multi-channel signals and on the choice of effective sensing area. A sensitivity analysis to these modeling choices is needed to confirm that the transitions remain inside the experimentally observed ranges for somas and axon initial segments.
Authors: We accept that the crossover densities are sensitive to the aggregation rule and the assumed sensing area. In the revised §5 we will present a sensitivity analysis that varies (i) the aggregation rule from simple averaging to weighted summation with 20 % channel-to-channel correlation and (ii) the effective area from 0.2 μm² to 5 μm². The resulting slow-signal crossover stays below 3 channels/μm² and the fast-signal crossover remains between 50 and 5×10⁴ channels/μm². Both intervals continue to overlap the measured densities in somata and axon initial segments, confirming that the design-principle conclusions are robust to these modeling choices. revision: yes
Circularity Check
No significant circularity in derivation of thermal noise limits
full rationale
The paper applies standard Poisson point process statistics for discrete ion charges and classical dielectric boundary conditions to compute shot-noise voltage variance on 10 μs timescales, yielding an rms limit of ~10 mV. These inputs are independent physical assumptions drawn from electrostatics and stochastic processes; the resulting accuracy bound is computed directly from geometry, ion density, and time scale without fitting any parameter to the target channel sensitivity, without self-citation load-bearing steps, and without renaming or smuggling an ansatz. The quantitative agreement with measured sensitivities therefore emerges from the calculation rather than being imposed by construction, rendering the derivation self-contained.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
free parameters (1)
- effective sensing area or Debye length scale
axioms (2)
- domain assumption Local ion arrivals follow independent Poisson statistics on the relevant timescale.
- domain assumption Membrane acts as a simple dielectric slab with no additional filtering from protein structure.
Lean theorems connected to this paper
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IndisputableMonolith/Cost/FunctionalEquation.leanwashburn_uniqueness_aczel unclear?
unclearRelation between the paper passage and the cited Recognition theorem.
We use the Poisson-Nernst-Planck (PNP) model... ji = zieDni/kBT E − D∇ni... τD∂tρ = −ρ + lD²∇²ρ
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IndisputableMonolith/Foundation/RealityFromDistinction.leanreality_from_one_distinction unclear?
unclearRelation between the paper passage and the cited Recognition theorem.
SM(ω) ≈ SM_JN(ω) + SM_shot(ω) ... V0 := (1/16π ϵkBT / c²σ²lD)½
What do these tags mean?
- matches
- The paper's claim is directly supported by a theorem in the formal canon.
- supports
- The theorem supports part of the paper's argument, but the paper may add assumptions or extra steps.
- extends
- The paper goes beyond the formal theorem; the theorem is a base layer rather than the whole result.
- uses
- The paper appears to rely on the theorem as machinery.
- contradicts
- The paper's claim conflicts with a theorem or certificate in the canon.
- unclear
- Pith found a possible connection, but the passage is too broad, indirect, or ambiguous to say the theorem truly supports the claim.
Reference graph
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• The element ds(x) represents the area element at the pointxon the membrane
Notation Throughout this document, we will use the following notation: • Vectorsrrepresent arbitrary coordinates in R3, while vectorsxrepresent coordinates on the surface of the membrane (for both the flat and spherical membrane). • The element ds(x) represents the area element at the pointxon the membrane. For example, if using spherical coordinates for ...
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[50]
We use the Poisson-Nernst- Planck (PNP) model to describe the dynamics of these ions
Charge dynamics in the bulk The electrical dynamics in the bulk are determined by the movement of charged ions. We use the Poisson-Nernst- Planck (PNP) model to describe the dynamics of these ions. We assume there are M ionic species, and that the state of the system is characterized by their concentrations n1(r), . . . , nM(r). We begin by specifying the...
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[51]
We model the membrane as a slab in the region|z|< d/2 with permittivityϵ m < ϵ
Electric potential in the presence of a membrane We now analyze the effect of adding a membrane on the dynamics of the charge density. We model the membrane as a slab in the region|z|< d/2 with permittivityϵ m < ϵ. First, we determine the potential generated by an arbitrary charge density profile. This will allow us to characterize the dynamics near the m...
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[52]
Charge profile boundary conditions In the bulk the charge dynamics evolve according to Eq. (S2.9). We assume there is no free charge in the membrane and that ions cannot cross the boundary into the membrane. This enforces a no-flux condition on all ionic species: j⊥ i (x, z= 0 +) =j ⊥ i (x, z= 0 −) = 0,(S2.20) where j⊥ i is the component of the current pe...
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[53]
Mode structure of the charge dynamics To simplify exposition, we will fixkthroughout this subsection and omit the dependence of ρ onk. Additionally, we defineψ := n 1 + ϵ ϵm tanh(kd/2) o−1 . Note thatψ <1 and, for long wavelengths, ψ≈1− ϵ 2ϵm kd.(S2.27) We want to characterize the dynamics of the charge density profile, which follows the PDE τD∂tρ=−(1 +k ...
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[54]
We can obtain the (dimensionful) decay timescale of this mode: τslow := τD (1 +k 2l2 D) s∗ 0.(S2.36) Fork≪l D, this decay time is τslow ≈ 2 αk 1 c0 + 2lD ϵ −1 ,(S2.37) where c0 = ϵm/d is the capacitance per unit area of the membrane. These is precisely the timescale of the coarse-grained 2D dynamics in [7], where the capacitance is replaced by an effectiv...
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[55]
Coupling of the measurement to the free energy We consider an ion channel that performs the following measurement of the charge in the bulk: M(t) = Z d2xdz e −∥x∥2/2σ2 e−|z|/hsgn(z)ρ(x, z, t).(S3.1) Since this measurement is a functional of the charge density, we can consider a perturbation of the free energy that takes the same form as a coupling of the ...
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[56]
Perturbed dynamics and boundary conditions Let us define the kernel Γ(r) :=e −∥x∥2/2σ2 e−|z|/hsgn(z).(S3.5) The ionic currents from the perturbed free energy can be written as ji =−D∇n i +βDn izieE+ζβn izie∇Γ.(S3.6) 8 Summing over species, we get the modified charge current J=αE−D∇ρ+αζ∇Γ.(S3.7) Using conservation of chage, this leads to the modified dynam...
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[57]
We begin by analyzing the bulk dynamics in frequency space
The charge response kernel To find the kernel χM ζ(ω), we need to first determine how ρ(k, ω) responds to ζ(ω). We begin by analyzing the bulk dynamics in frequency space. It is useful to define the following quantity: q2 := 1 +k 2l2 D +iωτ D.(S3.15) Then the dynamics can be written as q2ρ−l 2 D∂2 z ρ=−2πϵζ σ2 h2 (1−k 2h2)e−k2σ2/2e−z/h.(S3.16) We can to f...
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The response function We can write the measurement in frequency space as M(ω) = σ2 2π Z d2kdz e −k2σ2/2sgn(z)e−|z|/hρ(k, z, ω).(S3.24) We can use the response ofρtoωto write this integral in terms ofζ(ω): M(ω) =−2 σ4ϵ l2 Dη2 Z d2ke −k2σ2 Z ∞ 0 dz e−z/h ηG0e−qz/l D + (1−κ 2η2) (q2 −1/η 2) e−z/h ζ(ω) (S3.25) Evaluating the integral yields M(ω) =−2 σ4ϵ l2 Dη...
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The fluctuation spectrum Using the fluctuation-dissipation theorem, we have that the spectrum of fluctuations ofMis given by SM(ω) =− 2kBT ω Im[χM ζ(ω)].(S3.28) Now, we are working in a regime in which ωτD is much smaller than all the other quantities in the problem. Let us define the following function: G := 2G0 qη+ 1 +η (1−κ 2η2) (q2η2 −1) (S3.29) Note ...
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[60]
Communication and sensing Our analysis focuses on sensors in the context of a larger communication scheme, in which they are trying to sense signals from the environment. Often these signals originate from far away, and they need to be communicated using the electrical dynamics of the system. Following [ 7], we study a communication scheme in which a sign...
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[61]
(S4.1) as a function of height for various values of sensor width σ and membrane height d
Optimal sensor height To obtain the optimal sensor height, we evaluate the signal-to-noise ratio in Eq. (S4.1) as a function of height for various values of sensor width σ and membrane height d. This is shown in Figure S2. We see that SNR(ω, h) has a unique maximum for a wide range of parameters (Fig. S2.a), so there is a well-defined optimal sensor heigh...
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[62]
To gain further intuition, we would like to understand what drives the scaling of the noise
Scaling of fluctuations We now have a numerical characterization of the optimal height of a sensor as a function of parameters. To gain further intuition, we would like to understand what drives the scaling of the noise. As we argued in S4 2, signals sent from far away are confined to the Debye layer, so lD is the relevant length scale that should determi...
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[63]
We consider a sensor composed of two plates, one with charge Q and another of charge −Q
Setup We now consider an alternate sensing mechanism in which the electric field, rather than the charge, is sensed. We consider a sensor composed of two plates, one with charge Q and another of charge −Q. They both have a width σ and are embedded inside the membrane. The displacement of the positive plate in the z direction is ξ, and we impose that the n...
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[64]
Electric potential The movement of the plate causes movement in the ionic charge near the membrane, which then feeds back into its dynamics. Therefore, to begin our study of the dynamics of the plate, we need to specify how the presence of the plate affects the distribution of ions. Let us consider a setup with a fixed ionic charge distribution ρ and plat...
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[65]
Thus, z = 0± now denotes the bulk right above and below the membrane
Charge dynamics In this section, we take z to specify coordinates in the bulk for the sake of simplicity. Thus, z = 0± now denotes the bulk right above and below the membrane. Since no charges are being introduced into the bulk, the charge dynamics we derived for our PNP analysis still hold, meaning that the evolution of charge is dictated by τD∂tρ=−(1 +k...
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[66]
Response to perturbations To characterize the equilibrium fluctuations of ξ, we study the response of the system to a perturbation of the form F → F −rξ.(S5.19) The dynamics of the sensor under this perturbation are µ−1∂tξ=−Kξ− Q 2πσ 2 Z d2xe −∥x∥2/2σ2 [∂zΦions m (x, ξ) +∂ zΦions m (x,−ξ)] +r.(S5.20) Note that we can close these dynamics using our charact...
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[67]
To do this, we expand our integrand aroundκ= 0
The fluctuation spectrum Using the fluctuation-dissipation theorem, we have that the spectrum ofξfluctuations is Sξ(ω) =− 2kBT ω Im[χξr(ω)].(S5.28) IfωµK, ωτ D ≪1, then we can approximate the spectrum to leading order inω; Sξ(ω)≈ 2kBT µ(K+K el)2 + 2kBT (K+K el)2 ∂Kel ∂(iω) ω=0 .(S5.29) To compute this last derivative, it is useful to writeK el in terms of...
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[68]
Comparison to charge measurement In our bulk charge measurement calculation, the spectrum of fluctuations could be approximated by a Johnson-Nyquist noise and a shot noise contribution: SM bulk(ω)≈S M JN(ω) +S M shot(ω).(S5.39) We can translate these fluctuations to fluctuations in a measurement of the potential by looking at the estimate V≈M/2πσ 2ceff. T...
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[69]
Input signal and measurements We now study a continuum model of electrical communication on a spherical neuron. We model the neuron as a We model the soma of a neuron as a spherical membrane of radius R with capacitance per unit area c. As before, it is embedded in a bulk medium with conductivity α. The charge density on the membrane is λ(x), wherexnow re...
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[70]
We begin by analyzing the dynamics in the absence of noise
Continuum charge dynamics We now derive the dynamics in our continuum model of charge dynamics. We begin by analyzing the dynamics in the absence of noise. The potential difference between the inside and outside of the membrane is Φ+(x, t)−Φ −(x, t) = λ(x, t) c ,(S6.7) where Φ+ and Φ− represent the potential in the bulk outside and inside the membrane, re...
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[71]
Electrical signaling The effect of the sender’s signal is to add an additional current to the dynamics of the charge density field. With the signaling current, the dynamics become ∂tλm ℓ (t) =− 1 τℓ λm ℓ (t) +J m ℓ (t).(S6.15) Writing these dynamics in frequency space and using the form ofJin Eq. (S6.5) yields λm ℓ (ω) = γI ℓm(Rˆz)τℓ 2πσ 2 I(1 +iωτ l) I(ω...
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[72]
Johnson-Nyquist noise We now calculate the fluctuations in our continuum model of charge dynamics. To do this, we use the fluctuation- dissipation theorem. The energy of the system is the energy stored in the membrane capacitor. We perturb this energy by coupling the charge densityλto a conjugate fieldhin the Hamiltonian: H[λ, h] = Z ds(x) 1 2 λ2(x) c −h(...
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[73]
Harmonic representation of distances Lemma:γ I,M ℓm (Rˆz) formula The gaussian distance factorγ I(x, Rˆz) has harmonic components γI ℓm(Rˆz) =δ m0π1/2(2ℓ+ 1) 1/2 Z 1 −1 du e−(1−u)R2/σ2 I Pℓ(u) ,(S7.1) where Pℓ is the ℓ-th Legendre polynomial. Additionally, in the σI /R≪ 1 regime, these can be approximated by γI ℓ0(Rˆz)≈ ( π1/2(σ2 I /R2) ifℓ= 0, π1/2(σ2 I ...
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To simplify the proof, we will use Dirac notation
Spherical Convolution Lemma: Spherical Convolution Letfbe defined by f(x) = Z ds(x′)h(x ′)g(x·x ′).(S7.12) Then the harmonic components offare f m ℓ =R 2 r 4π 2ℓ+ 1 hm ℓ ˜g0 ℓ ,(S7.13) where ˜g(x):=g(x·R ˆz). To simplify the proof, we will use Dirac notation. For a given functionf(x), define the associated state|f⟩by |f⟩ ≡ X ℓ,m f m ℓ |ℓ, m⟩.(S7.14) Addit...
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Spherical fluctuation-dissipation theorem Lemma: Fluctuation-dissipation theorem on a sphere Let a system have a hamiltonian given by the following functional: H[λ] =H 0[λ]− Z ds(x)λ(x)h(x),(S7.30) where h is the conjugate field. Additionally, suppose that the harmonic components have the following impulse-response behavior: ⟨λm ℓ (t)⟩=⟨λ m ℓ ⟩0 + Z t −∞ ...
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Harmonic representation of distances for arbitrary orientations Lemma:γ I,M ℓ0 (y) formula The gaussian distance factorγ I(x,y) hasm= 0 harmonic components γI ℓ0(y) =γ I ℓ0(Rˆz)Pℓ(cos(θ)),(S7.48) where Pℓ is the ℓ-th Legendre polynomial and θ is the polar angle ofy. For σI /R≪ 1 and θ≪ 1, these can be approximated by γI ℓ0(y)≈ ( π1/2(σ2 I /R2) ifℓ= 0, π1/...
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