REVIEW 3 major objections 5 minor 1 cited by
A judge LLM that can evaluate table outputs cannot reliably guide closed-loop regeneration: no tested score policy beat keeping the first output.
Reviewed by Pith at T0; open to challenge. T0 means a machine referee read the full paper against a public rubric. the ladder, T0–T4 →
T0 review · deepseek-v4-flash
2026-08-02 05:24 UTC pith:QHYOIOPO
load-bearing objection The central negative result—reference-free judge scores don't drive selection in closed-loop table recognition—is solid and worth taking seriously; the secondary mechanism claim is softer but honestly hedged. the 3 major comments →
LLM-as-a-Judge Scores Are Unreliable Optimization Signals in Closed-Loop Table Recognition
The pith
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
An eight-iteration closed loop regenerates HTML tables from images: a reference-free LLM judge scores each candidate and lists errors; the generator revises from that feedback; ground truth never enters; the deterministic tree-edit metric TEDS audits every decision. The judge signal is weak: scores tie on tens of percent of distinct candidate pairs, rankings are not reproducible, and no judge configuration, scoring format, or tie rule beats the trivial always-iter0 baseline on both datasets; margin-guarded acceptance does not help. Removing feedback leaves net degradation unchanged and severe losses persist, indicting target-preservation failure under unconstrained regeneration. A structure-
What carries the argument
The central object is a closed-loop regeneration pipeline whose every decision is audited by TEDS, a deterministic tree-edit-distance similarity between the generated HTML table and fixed ground truth. TEDS converts the otherwise fuzzy notion of table quality into a fixed benchmark objective, so the paper can quantify, per table and per iteration, how far each judge decision deviates from the target. The argument is carried by two crossed contrasts, both forking from the same stored initial output: a feedback-presence contrast (judge error list injected vs. generic instruction only) and a structure-preservation contrast (unconstrained regeneration vs. copy-preserving regeneration instructed
Load-bearing premise
The causal decomposition assumes that temperature-0 generation and scoring are near-deterministic; the paper concedes full determinism does not hold and that using more than one serving backend may account for part of the scoring nondeterminism, so if routing or sampling noise is substantial, attribution of changes to feedback weakens.
What would settle it
A judge configuration with near-perfect scoring reproducibility (e.g., exact agreement above 95% across repeated calls) and near-zero tie rates on TEDS-separated pairs, whose best-of-n or margin-guarded selection then beats keeping the first output on both benchmarks, would overturn the central claim.
If this is right
- Judge scores should not gate deployment in reference-free iterative extraction: keeping the first output was the safest baseline on both benchmarks.
- Guarded margin rules are not a safety net; the margins that avoided degradation accepted almost no revisions, so they merely replicated the first-output policy.
- A neutral average loop outcome can hide severe tail damage: 4–12% of tables suffered large losses, so mean metrics alone are insufficient for deciding whether to deploy a refine loop.
- Regeneration itself, not the content of judge feedback, is the main source of damage; preventing structural changes during revision reduces the worst failures.
- Iterative refinement needs a deterministic structural verification signal (e.g., checking row/column counts and merge structure) rather than judge scores alone.
Where Pith is reading between the lines
- Editorial: If this pattern holds beyond the two benchmarks, evaluation-score alignment with humans should not be taken as evidence that the same scores can steer optimization; applications should first audit within-instance ranking reproducibility (tie rates, repeated-scoring agreement) before building a loop around a judge.
- Editorial: The convention-conflict mechanism suggests a testable extension: the breakage rate should scale with the divergence between the target dataset's ground-truth HTML conventions and the markup conventions the judge prefers; measuring that divergence could predict which tables are at risk.
- Editorial: The exploratory generator trend (larger oracle headroom associated with positive loop benefit) suggests a practical decision rule for practitioners: measure baseline error on a small labeled audit and enable closed-loop refinement only for generators/inputs with large headroom.
- Editorial: A deterministic structural guard could be tested directly: add a checker that rejects any revision whose row/column count or merge structure differs from the previous candidate, and measure whether the loop's tail losses disappear.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper studies whether reference-free LLM-as-a-judge scores can serve as reliable optimization signals in closed-loop table recognition. Using a Gemini model as generator and judge, it runs eight-iteration regeneration loops on FinTabNet and OmniDocBench, with TEDS computed post hoc from ground truth as a deterministic audit metric. The paper reports three main findings: (1) judge scores are weak selection signals—frequent ties, low or negative rank correlations, non-reproducible rankings, negative or near-zero recovery relative to the first output, and no tested score policy improving over iter0 on both datasets; (2) severe degradation occurs even without judge feedback, with target-preservation failure under unconstrained regeneration as a proximate mechanism; (3) a structure-preserving instruction reduces the severe-loss rate in a frozen-iter0 paired contrast, significantly on FinTabNet and directionally on OmniDocBench. The paper concludes that evaluation-style evidence for LLM judges does not establish closed-loop optimization utility and that deterministic structural verification is needed.
Significance. If the central negative result holds, it is a valuable, well-scoped contribution: the task provides a deterministic external metric, and the authors run multiple independent diagnostics—tie rates, rank correlations, repeated-scoring repeatability, an independent TEDS implementation cross-check, a no-feedback control, an independent-candidate control, and artifact audits. These controls make the selection-failure result substantially more convincing than a single point estimate. The paper is also appropriately cautious in many places: it does not dispute LLM-as-a-judge as an evaluator, it discloses the development-set selection of the calibrated prompt, it reports the post hoc margin selection, and it includes a Limitations section that candidly documents non-replication. The main weakness is that the mechanistic claims about target-preservation failure and feedback content are built on across-run contrasts in a setting the paper itself shows to be temporally unstable. The selection-failure negative result is likely robust; the causal decomposition is not yet established at the same standard.
major comments (3)
- [§4.4 and Limitations] The proximate-mechanism claim rests on contrasts that are not protected against the paper's own documented run-to-run non-replication. The Limitations state that the original 2×2 unconstrained-condition mean (−0.0122) did not recur in later re-forking runs (+0.0000 and +0.0007), and that multi-backend serving is an unconfirmed possible cause. The full-n frozen-iter0 B/C severe-loss contrast (17/476 vs 4/476, two-sided exact McNemar p=0.0023) is paired by table, but the text does not report whether B and C were interleaved or randomized within the run, or whether backend allocation was pinned. If B and C were executed in separate time blocks, temporal drift could produce or inflate the severe-loss difference. The same concern applies to the no-feedback control in §4.1/Appendix B.6 (paired 99-table difference +0.0001), where the main loop and the no-feedback loop are separate runs. Please
- [§4.1 and Table 1; Limitations] The central selection-failure claim is presented as a general property of the loop, but the policy comparisons in Table 1 are computed on a single main-run candidate stream. The paper's own Limitations record that the unconstrained-condition mean did not recur in later re-forking runs (means +0.0000 and +0.0007), and the full-n B condition in §4.4 has mean −0.0030 on FinTabNet versus −0.0200 in the main run. Thus 'no tested judge score policy improved on the first output on both datasets' is, strictly, a claim about one realization. The tie-rate, rank-correlation, and repeatability diagnostics make the selection-failure result plausible, but they do not by themselves establish that the recovery numbers in Table 1 would survive replication on a re-forked run. Please report a replication of the selection policies on a re-forked candidate stream, or explicitly restrict the claim to the obse
- [§4.4 and Appendix J] The guarded-acceptance result is used to support the overall conclusion, but the OmniDocBench improvement at δ=20 is selected post hoc from a grid, as the Limitations state. The FinTabNet δ=20 result is negative (−0.0020) and the margin rule mostly rejects revisions. Given that the post hoc selection is not accounted for in the confidence interval, the sentence in §4.2 that 'the best margin (δ=20, selected post hoc from the grid) improved mean TEDS by +0.0116' should be explicitly labeled exploratory, and the abstract's summary of the guarded-policy finding should not rely on this value. A simple multiple-comparison acknowledgment (e.g., reporting all six margins, as Appendix J does) is already present, but the main text should not present the selected margin as a confirmed policy without a fixed-analysis qualification.
minor comments (5)
- [§4.1] 'Feedback content is not the source of net degradation' is too strong given the cross-run nature of the comparison; suggest rewording to 'not the source in this paired comparison' or adding the temporal-drift caveat where the sentence first appears.
- [Table 1] The 'Better'/'Worse' column compares against random-among-8, not against iter0. Since several policies are simultaneously 'better than random' and worse than iter0, the table would benefit from a footnote making this distinction explicit in each verdict cell.
- [§I.1] The statement 'Full determinism does not hold' appears only in an appendix footnote. Given that the paper's causal interpretation depends on near-determinism, this qualification should appear in the main-text experimental setup (Section 3.1) alongside the temperature-0 statement.
- [§3.1 / Appendix I.1] The multi-backend routing is mentioned in the Limitations and Appendix I.1 but not in Section 3.1. Consider moving a one-sentence mention into the main text so the reader is not surprised by the later caveat.
- [Appendix B.4] The blinded author validation reports Cohen's κ=0.648 and a relabeling of several REAL items to GT-inconsistent. The main-text Section 4.3 cites the LLM-assisted labels without noting this revision; a pointer to the sensitivity analysis near the main claim would improve transparency.
Circularity Check
No significant circularity: the central negative result is benchmarked against external deterministic TEDS, and the few fitted components are disclosed and non-load-bearing.
full rationale
The paper's central claim is empirical: judge-based selection and feedback do not improve over the first output when scored by TEDS. TEDS is computed deterministically from ground truth and is external to the loop; the paper also enforces a GT firewall so judge and generator never see GT. No equation derives the judge's weakness from a fitted parameter, and no load-bearing result is justified by self-citation. The only fitted elements are the calibrated_v2 prompt, selected against TEDS on 20 development tables, and the post hoc δ=20 margin rule. Both are explicitly disclosed as exploratory or non-confirmatory: the Limitations state 'The calibrated_v2 prompt was selected against TEDS using 20 development tables' and 'we do not treat positive signals by stratum as established claims,' and the δ=20 result is described as 'selected post hoc from a grid' and 'exploratory.' Moreover, calibrated_v2 does not support the main conclusion: its best-by-judge policy still has negative mean Δ on FinTabNet. The RQ4 mechanism claim uses paired frozen-iter0 contrasts with a pre-specified severe-loss endpoint and exact McNemar tests, not a fitted prediction. The acknowledged run-to-run non-replication of mean effects is a robustness/confound concern, not circularity. The paper does not import a uniqueness theorem, rename a known result, or defend its central premise by citing the author's prior work. The derivation chain is therefore self-contained and non-circular.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
free parameters (3)
- calibrated_v2 scoring prompt/rubric =
selected on 20 development tables using TEDS
- Guard margin δ in guarded acceptance =
20 (best in post hoc grid over {0,20,40,60,80,100})
- Severe-loss threshold for primary frozen-iter0 contrast =
ΔTEDS < -0.10
axioms (4)
- domain assumption TEDS against fixed GT is a valid deterministic measure of table-recognition quality.
- domain assumption Generation at temperature 0 is near-deterministic enough to attribute iteration changes to injected judge feedback.
- domain assumption GT serialization conventions define correct structure, so departures such as converting section-label cells to merged headers count as structural damage.
- domain assumption The two OpenRouter serving backends ('Google AI Studio' and 'Google') are functionally equivalent for this study.
read the original abstract
LLM-as-a-judge is widely used to provide feedback and selection signals in closedloop regeneration, but this use remains insufficiently validated. We study it in table recognition, where deterministic TEDS evaluation provides a controlled testbed, using FinTabNet and OmniDocBench. Three findings emerge. First, judge signals were weak on both datasets: scores frequently tied, rankings were not reproducible, and no tested judge score policy, whether selecting among candidates or accepting revisions under a conservative score margin, improved on the first output on both datasets. Iteration produced better candidates, but the judge recovered them at most partially on one dataset and not at all on the other. Second, severe losses occurred even without specific judge feedback, supporting target-preservation failure under unconstrained regeneration as a proximate mechanism. Third, a structure-preserving instruction reduced the severe-loss rate, significantly on FinTabNet and directionally on OmniDocBench, but produced no improvement, and in an exploratory 2x2 analysis this protection was not stably observed when judge feedback was retained. These results do not dispute the value of LLMs as evaluators, but show that the tested reference-free judge signals were too weak and unstable to drive candidate selection in this setup, and that evaluation-style evidence alone was insufficient to establish closed-loop optimization utility. Iterative refinement requires, at minimum, a verification signal that deterministically detects structural change, rather than judge scores alone.
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Forward citations
Cited by 1 Pith paper
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